Discussion/information about 6.85 NE balance changes.

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    • Discussion/information about 6.85 NE balance changes.

      Hi everybody, so we decided to make another thread just for the suggestions/bug fixes/ balance changes in the following patches of 6.85.




      If you are more interested about the changes that have been made from 6.83 to 6.85 you can find shiras amazing guide linked here: [Guide] basics of 6.85 for 6.83em players


      Here are the following changes I thougth would be really important when changing dota 6.85 to EM mode. The explanations why will be in red colour.

      Balances allrdy in affect in the new map.

      Bristle


      > level 1 armor from 3 to 1
      >Spray stack dmg from 30/32/34/36 to 25 on every level.


      Bristle is in the top 3 heroes in 6.85. The problem is that it deals too much damage, he almost unkillable in the late game, because of new items like core and there is almost no counters to him (apart from lc which is dogshit tier in 85.) I have decided to decrease his early game potential with lower dmg output and making him easier to be killed. Note that bristleback has low agility gain so he's basic armor gain is rather small, and this effects it drastically. (making him 7 armor level 25 rather than 9), There is a chance these nerfs are not enough, and bristleback might recive more nerfs in the future.

      Alcemist


      >Greevil's Greed no longer gives 5x bounty rune.
      > Level 1 armor from 2 to 0

      This hero would've been new arc/meepo if we had not made some drastic measures to deal with him. The greed's ability to give 5x bounty is one of the biggest bullshit things in dota, making him able to get 500 gold per first bounty rune. This change will make him more less reliable to get fast items just by getting bounty rune every 2 mins. The armor reduction has the same logic as the bristleback one has. Alcemist is too strong laner, especially in mid, since alcemist's goo has better dmg output. In 6.85 there was a problem that most alcemist players could just duel better mid heroes (like qop or lina) by just casting goo which made the enemy unable to get cs probably without getting rekt by goo and creeps. This way alcemist will be more easy to handle in lane especially in mid.

      Invoker
      >Alacritys dmg from 30/40/50/60/70/80/90 to 10/25/40/55/70/85/100/115.
      >increase manacost from 45 to 80
      >Deafening Blast mana cost from 200 to 300
      >int gain from 4 to 3.0
      >base int from 22 to 18
      > Invoker's agha no longer gives +1 level to Quas Wex Exort


      In top 3 heroes of 6.85 with bristleback. In 6.85 alacrity is way too strong in early stages of the game since it does not cost almost no mana and it deals too much dps. By lowering invokers INT gain, and also rebalacing alacrity to make it less viable in early fights, it should fix the problem that was the 6.85 invoker, which made him arguable to best midler in the game. The reason why blast's manacost was increased is that in 6.85 invoker could use euls combo (sunstrike, blast meteor) and still had the mana to use many spells afterwards.
      This balance fix and the fact invoker has lower int gain will make him, less reliable of an nuker, disabler and escaper in late game this makes him have around 400 less mana. Taking away invoker's agha buff that gave him +1 of Quas Wex And Exort, makes invoker have less of a push in mid game after purchasing aghanim. Same with bristleback there is a chance this might not be enough, and we might have to revisit him in the future.


      Pudge.


      >old hook animation
      >Rot slow from 27% to 20%


      Pudge's hook got heavily buffed in the 6.85 patch, which made him able to STOP his hook, before casting it. Also pudge's hook had a faster cast rate which made it almost impossible to dodge enemy pudge's hook in medium to short range. replacing the new with old pudge hook should counter these reign of pudge that he had in 6.85. What comes to rot, the problem with rot was that pudge without boots could chase enemy with boots if he was affected by rot. change rot's slow should make it possible to escape pudge in the future.


      Omniknight


      > Increase cast point from 0.25 to 0.5 (like in 6.83)
      > Repel duration from 4/6/8/10 to 4/5/6/7.


      Omniknight is defently the best support around in 6.85 since he had his heal's cast point severely lowered which made his heal almost insta. Making it twice as long (like in 83) should fix that problem. I have always thougth repel's was too op in pub games since most people dont know how to counter it. This is why i decided to make it last half of his repel cooldown


      Tiny


      >Int gain from 1.6 to 1
      >str gain from 3.3 to 2.5


      Tiny had too much mana in the early game which makes him really strong. In 6.85 he is able to use his combo without any mana items in level 3. This should fix him since he'd be forced to buy early mana instead of dagger/lothars rush. Also this effects him the long run, since he wont be able to use his spells many times before running out of mana. I have always thougth tiny has had too much hp on his hands. And with the cragging armor ability he has its so frustrating to try and kiill him with melee carries. This is why i decided to nerf his hp gain, by a noticable amount. This should lead to more squishy tiny to hard carries.


      Slark
      >ultimate's passive fadetime (passives delay when out of sight of the enemy ) has been increased from 0.5 to 2

      Ultimate's longer fade time makes it easier to chase slark when he decides to escape.


      Visage
      > Base magic resistance from 10% to 25% (which is the normal base magic resistance for a hero)

      This will make it more viable in EM mode, since visage is one of the least played heroes in dota this should have not that big of an impact on the game.


      Meepo
      >Base magic resistance from 35% to 25%


      Even after Meepo received a hard nerf when the death timer reduction got removed (thank lord all mighty) it might still not be enough. I have never played vs em mode meepo in 6.85 since there has never been EM mode in this map before so its hard to say if meepo is still a major problem, that simple makes games unfair, therefore this nerf has been added. This means meepo is more likely to get countered by most aeo heavy heroes like leshrak, es, invoker and zeus. It is good to note that in this version veil has lower cd and cost which makes it a an excellent item to buy vs meepo. This nerf also encourages meepo players to buy pipe on it rather than building full dmg / tank builds. In 6.85 pipe received major buffs which makes it one of the better items you can buy.



      Spectre
      > dispersion dmg reflection will be reduced from 10%/14%/18%/22%. to 12%/14%/16%/18%



      Spectre is in the top 3 carries of the 6.85 map, the main reasons for that is better radiance which now gives evasion, better dispersion which now reflects damage before any kind of reduction which has lead to way better dmg output and survivability. This change to the skill's percentage, should nerf his overall dmg in the mid/late game but still making his skill viable in the early game. Also this change encourages spectre build's his ability more 'desolate' skill based from the tanky skill build that has been in meta so far.

      Upcoming balance fixes.
      These balance fixes are have not been added to the game or they might not be necessary.


      Hex
      >like in 6.83 it also silences passives


      Think most of you did not know this but in 6.84 hex no longer disabled passives, so this should make it a go-to item to buy vs heroes with powerfull passives.

      Slark
      > Pounce cd from 20/16/12/8 to 19/16/13/10
      >Dark pact manacost from 40 to 75


      slark might still be too good, might recive some extra nerf if needed.

      Bara
      >Base armor from 5 to 3
      >Base str from 29 to 25

      Who's idea was to make bara the tankies hero level 1 and also give him 5 base armor? Fuck you bara.



      So these are the changes that will have happened/will happen in the upcoming 6.85 map/s. If you have any idea's / balance suggestions please leave a comment, and maybe they will be implemented in the following versions :thumbsup:
      How to detect if someone is maphacking with 2 simple tricks:

      ▢ Is the accused player better at the game than you're?
      ▢ Could you have done the exact 'mh move' that he did?

      If you check either of those boxes, the player is probably not using maphack.

      The post was edited 35 times, last by Peachtree/EmBeR ().

    • Shiranui wrote:

      personally I'd say

      • Bristleback needs his mid game nerfing not his early game and quil spray is slightly op in 6.85 but was a joke in 6.83 maybe nerf his passive and check that it is correct % cause the aoe of his "back" seems higher than his back actually is
      • Best way to nerf Invoker imo is nerf his way too high auto attack damage he should be carrying with spells not right clicks
      • Pudge imo too good at everything and always stays relevant to the game hook can easily change game but is so easy to spam and catch someone flesh heap makes him tanky keeps him scaling into late game and his ulti scaling from the flesh heap str keeps that doing alot of damage
      • Omni and Tiny I agree with

      • Actually persoanlly i think bristleback is at his weak at early/mid game. because after he gets his core/hood/bm its pretty much gg unless your enemy has some real good counters towards him. The lowering armor makes him much worse of a laner which automatically leads to less farming and the ability to survive/tank in early/mid game. Im not sure of the passive tho, it could be possible it does need some nerfing.


      • Invokers high dmg gets resolved by worse int gain and worse alcarite.
      • I have had never a problem to deal with enemy pudges in 6.83, so this is pretty much it.
      How to detect if someone is maphacking with 2 simple tricks:

      ▢ Is the accused player better at the game than you're?
      ▢ Could you have done the exact 'mh move' that he did?

      If you check either of those boxes, the player is probably not using maphack.
    • best way to counter bristleback is silvers edge maybe also let hex disable passives again to help counter him

      for alchemist maybe give him x2 or 3 on rune and nerf one of his other spells slightly like his ultimate ? i think he can be countered by map control and ganking him when he goes to runes altho I guess that won't be taken advantage of in these kind of games

      for tiny I'd say keep his str and nerf his craggy to work when attack lands and not when the attack animation starts (had it happen afew times where I try to nuke him but stopped by auto attack triggering craggy)

      this is kind of an idea but I think rod of atos slow should be purge to make it more useful and another way to counter Omni on heroes that diffusional doesn't really work well on
      Everything that went badly is your fault, because otherwise it's my fault and I refuse to accept that.

      Basic Dota 6.85 guide for 6.83em players
      Common noob mistakes in pubs

      • Hi thank you for your suggestions.
      • I actually like to idea of hex being able to disables passives, maybe we can change it in the future.
      • What comes to alchemist, its hard to say if removing bounty bonus from him makes him unviable in EM dota, guess we have to play to find out.
      • It might be too demanding to change tinys passive to work like that, i wanted to make these nerfs as easy as possible for tufuu to implement.
      • Diffu is actually really viable to build in 6.85 since its charges can be rebought. And i dont like the idea of basically having 2 items with the same effect.

      Keep in mind this is EM mode, so its rather difficult to see what are the right choises. So it just cant be copy-pasted from what they did in dota 2.
      How to detect if someone is maphacking with 2 simple tricks:

      ▢ Is the accused player better at the game than you're?
      ▢ Could you have done the exact 'mh move' that he did?

      If you check either of those boxes, the player is probably not using maphack.
    • Hello everybody, im glad to announce that i have had the chance of get my hands on the re-balanced 6.85 map. What I have tested/seen so far everything should be in order, apart from alacrite still being op as fuck, and that the text in the ability still shows the old values/damages. If any of you are interested to try this map out link to download can be found here =======>>> CLICK ME
      Note that it can only be played in 1.29 version at the moment, because of blizzards fuck ups, this should be fixed in the future though, when new version of wc3 has been released.

      Also there has been few new balance's that will take effect in the next version, they will be edited in the 1st post.

      Dzevo wrote:

      I would say let Lion deal divine damage with his ult xd, would be cool. Let his Finger of Death be deadly as like it seems xd
      Even thought that would fit his hero style perfectly, it would be just a better linas ulti with lower cd, better dmg, range and AEO effect, so i doubt this will be added xdd
      How to detect if someone is maphacking with 2 simple tricks:

      ▢ Is the accused player better at the game than you're?
      ▢ Could you have done the exact 'mh move' that he did?

      If you check either of those boxes, the player is probably not using maphack.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Peachtree/EmBeR ().

    • New

      So I implemented all this stuff that Ember wrote in his 1st post except the hex disabling passives. First I didn't notice any differences between hex in 6.83d and 6.85. Both didn't disable for example Spectre's dispersion or Axe's Counter Helix but in both versions Mortred's Blur is removed. So ... currently for me it is a myth that Sheepstick/Hex changed in 6.85 but maybe you can tell me something different. ^^
      It took me a while to figure out how to remove the passives if a unit gets hexed but now I could implement that for almost all passives. However this spell / item is already very powerful and I'd like to hear more opinions wether to add passive disabling or not ... or only for some passives. I am not sure if I will put these changes then in the first release or if it is not better to put them into the 2nd.

      The map is ready for testing and when the new patch comes out we can play some games on gp01. If everyone is happy we might put it on bot8.de then.
      Hower we are still open for more suggestions concerning balance fixes for the first release (and for future versions). So spit it out - whatever burns on your soul :)

      Regards
    • New

      I've also noticed hex disabling passives is also a buff to Lion and Rhasta both are already pretty strong heroes (this Lion would really counter Bristleback) and could make them too strong.

      imo hex itself doesn't seem that powerful compared to other stuns as it doesn't do any damage and it's single target, disabling passives would give it much of a niche. Silvers edge doesn't fit a lot of spell caster heroes and the new items also kinda overshadows sheep stick on the kinda of heroes that used to get it.

      as for the break mechanic(disabling passives) some passives can't be disabled like Pudge and Slark stacks (prevents them getting more while applied) but should work on the rest of them.
      Everything that went badly is your fault, because otherwise it's my fault and I refuse to accept that.

      Basic Dota 6.85 guide for 6.83em players
      Common noob mistakes in pubs

    • New

      Shiranui wrote:

      imo hex itself doesn't seem that powerful compared to other stuns as it doesn't do any damage and it's single target
      i think so too

      i already said it but the orginal thought behind hex is to disable all passives (which are possible), dmgblocks, evasion, truesight, auras and the ability to get exp.
      so if you ask me, i would integrate all these things, so far its possible for you :)
    • New

      actully i think hex is at perfect place tbh. It deals no dmg yes and yes its single target, but it usually has really long duraction. Think it like dk stun, which is the best stun in the game.
      How to detect if someone is maphacking with 2 simple tricks:

      ▢ Is the accused player better at the game than you're?
      ▢ Could you have done the exact 'mh move' that he did?

      If you check either of those boxes, the player is probably not using maphack.
    • New

      Heyho,

      thanks to the new patch 1.31 and Buufuu who uploaded the map in 0 time, Ember and me tested the map in a 1n1 -test match on the gp01 bot. It worked like a charm (everything as expected) <3

      We are very happy and excited to play and test this awesome map with you ! See you tomorrow hopefully!

      Cheers
    • New

      Wabble wrote:

      I can remember a lot people complained about tuskar ( closer shards make excape hard).
      Sure not as overpowered as alic/ brist but maybe we should consider this too.
      agreed. could be an option to add the old one from 6.83.
      How to detect if someone is maphacking with 2 simple tricks:

      ▢ Is the accused player better at the game than you're?
      ▢ Could you have done the exact 'mh move' that he did?

      If you check either of those boxes, the player is probably not using maphack.
    • New

      I agree Tuskar shards being too good it works much better than ES fissure at trapping/blocking people, has longer range and doesn't require the same careful positioning fissure needs.
      Everything that went badly is your fault, because otherwise it's my fault and I refuse to accept that.

      Basic Dota 6.85 guide for 6.83em players
      Common noob mistakes in pubs

    • New

      Hey,

      so here are some updates that will be in the next map:
      - as most of us agreed: Tuskarr's Ice Shards work again like in 6.83d (only 5 blocking shards rather than 7) => thanks to Wabble
      - fixed a bug with Shadow Demon's Agha upgrade: It provides again 3 charges => thanks to Peachtree/Ember
      - Illusions no longer will wear Santa's hat when the owner is on a killing spree

      Best regards
    • New

      a few more ideas I've thought of for this map

      • When normal panda uses his ultimate and has gem of true sight equipped the earth panda gets true sight (maybe also do something like this to similar abilities like phoenix sun?)
      • I think there was a bug with wisps overcharge not working correctly ?
      • Oracle ultimate needs lower cd or made slightly better (obviously not to 6.83 levels)
      • Bat rider needs a small buff somewhere 6.84/5 has really hammered him
      • Legion commander also needs small buff but I think a lot of people would like to see him much weaker for a while :P
      • Gem visual when people aren't carrying gem
      Everything that went badly is your fault, because otherwise it's my fault and I refuse to accept that.

      Basic Dota 6.85 guide for 6.83em players
      Common noob mistakes in pubs

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Shiranui ().

    • New

      Hi, thx for suggestion, we defently should add all those graphical bugs in this version, but i dont want to add anything "it got nerfred in 6.84/6.85 so we need to buff it" type of deal, before we have had some public testing, since they might not be nessessary.
      How to detect if someone is maphacking with 2 simple tricks:

      ▢ Is the accused player better at the game than you're?
      ▢ Could you have done the exact 'mh move' that he did?

      If you check either of those boxes, the player is probably not using maphack.
    • New

      Peachtree/EmBeR wrote:

      Slark
      > Pounce cd from 20/16/12/8 to 20/18/16/14
      >Dark pact manacost from 40 to 75


      slark might still be too good, might recive some extra nerf if needed.

      Bara
      >Base armor from 5 to 3
      >Base str from 29 to 23

      Who's idea was to make bara the tankies hero level 1 and also give him 5 base armor? Fuck you bara.


      I like the Slark nerfs he should be punished for playing stupidly like every other hero, and the extra mana cost to dark pact should mean Slark can't just get Aquila to solve all his mana issues and makes it less spammable for farming or ganking. Slightly higher cd might also be better cause it's lower than pretty much every disable.

      The Bara nerfs seems too harsh, I don't go mid often so idk what it's like trying to deal with him camping mid from level 2 but the early game tankiness is one of his main niches and disrupts his ability to tower dive.without the early tankiness there's very little reason to pick him over Slardar or clockwork goblin instead.

      One way to rebalance Bara if you do these nerfs could be to have his aura give say +2 strength or +1 armour per level to weaken him early but make him stronger mid game to make up for the early game nerfs
      Everything that went badly is your fault, because otherwise it's my fault and I refuse to accept that.

      Basic Dota 6.85 guide for 6.83em players
      Common noob mistakes in pubs

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Shiranui ().